Ayman : MSNBCW : August 11, 2024 5:00pm-6:00pm PDT : Free Borrow & Streaming : Internet Archive (2024)

>> tonight, on this new hour of ayman. trump and his republican allies say they may have nothing to do with project 2025, but a new bombshell report has videos that say otherwise. we've got the receipts. and j.d. vance is on the defense. we know he is connected to heritage foundation president kevin roberts, so why is he shelving the book that they both worked on together? and the good, the bad, and the worst celebrity endorsem*nts. are they effective or is this just about pandering? i am charles coleman jr. in for ayman mohyeldin , and we have a lot to talk about. let's do it. >> ♪ ♪

project 2025 has undergone a rather striking transformation in recent weeks. evolving first from so start far right -- but the maga one stop would be a galvanizing force is turning out to be an enormously successful repellent. in a new piece, mother jones sums it up nicely. he took the unlikable goals put them in one place and gave it an ominous title. republicans are watching that ominously titled policy vision board backfire on them in grand fashion and in real time and they are desperately trying to distance themselves from it. trump has repeatedly, desperately, and falsely said that he doesn't know anything about project 20 i had an -- project 2025. listen, 45, we know that's not true. the washington post reported this week that back in 2022, trump took a 45 minute private flight with kevin roberts, the president of the heart patient -- heritage project. the two flew together on a jet

together to a heritage foundation conference, where trump delivered the keynote address. this is what he said. let's roll it. >> right now, in these next two years, we have the biggest opportunity for the conservative movement since heritage was founded. bigger than 1980, bigger than 1984, bigger than 1994. bigger than ever before and much bigger than even 2016, one of the great days and years in the history of our country and i hope you all agree. now is the time to build a new american consensus. >> all right, so kevin roberts is your man, i get it, but as if that weren't already enough to make matters worse, a new bombshell report comes out from propublica that it gain access to dozens of secret training videos intended for future republican political appointees. this is really important, y'all.

there are more than 14 hours of content and the video showcase how project 2025 is making good on its foreboding progress on training officials against the deep state bureaucracy. according to propublica's reporting, the majority of speakers in these videos, 29 of the 36 people who were actually on camera, they have worked for trump in some capacity. here is just a taste of what the training videos are pushing forward. watch. >> climate change allegedly is everywhere. if the american people elect a conservative president, his administration will have to eradicate climate change references from absolutely everywhere. >> i think you can expect that equity and all of the equity executive orders under biden will be repealed early the next administration. this is going to require a very detailed plan to execute the eradication of the dictates in

the equity order. >> if the next republican president does not execute a dramatic course correction, there may never be another chance so, if you are not on board with helping implement a dramatic -- damage your future employment prospects, it'll harm you socially, i get it. that is a real danger. it's a real thing. but do us all a favor and sit this one out. >> all right, i know what you are thinking, and no, that was not an snl skit. that was real. these videos layout what we have known for a long time to be project 2025's extreme agenda and that the people behind it are committed to making this the playbook for all future republican administrations on every level, state, local, and federal. but there's no denying that the approach is alienating voters and proving to be a massive thorn in trump side.

in that sense, project 2025 has done with democrats tried to do for years, tied trump to the unpopular policies of the maga coalition to -- the megarich trying to give themselves more tax rates. -- tax breaks. congratulations, maga, and the like to say with callie, you played yourself. happy to have andy kroll, who wrote that incredible piece. also, two of my absolute -- the woke af podcast and cohost of the democracy-ish and the new abnormal broadcast, -- podcast. host of the fastball to pockets and special correspondent for vanity fair. andy, i should say that response to your story, trump's campaign, these videos that you have -- -- what other messages and themes did you come across.

i can imagine that that was the juiciest stuff that you just.. >> definitely some of the juiciest stuff. your video team deserve some credit for that. i would note that the trump relay campaign who sent us the statement saying they have nothing to do with project 2025. is in these a project 2025 videos so if you want a connection between the two, it doesn't get much clearer than that. the big take away policy -wise, personnel -wise from these videos. these videos are a centerpiece of project 2025, the big plan for the next republican president -- donald trump at this point is to go after anything related to climate change, go after anything related to racial equity, diversity, equality, sort of big steps that democratic party is been making, the biden administration is really to train a cohort, thousands of people on the kind of policies

in the playbook, the 900 page policy playbook that project 2025 cut out to that if a republican gets elected president's, these appointees put that agenda into place, not starting on day one. not starting sometime in the first year, but to start as project 2025 itself on day one of that next administration. >> danielle, in the last hour, we talked about the notion of incompetence versus malice and i'm wondering if these attempts to, for example, limiting references to climate change, and things of that nature, it strategically, it seems like it's really backfiring on conservatives. should that be viewed as sort of, or are we, on the left, misinterpreting how this is actually landing or is this really just like bad strategy? >> it's actually good strategy on their part because they know it's unpopular. if they back away from project

2025, as we are seeing donald trump to, as we see on this very network thing he had nothing to do with it, then we think that it will go away, but the fact is that we know him that you don't put together a 900 page plan and say we are just going to tuck it away for a bit. it is unpopular and we know that they are backing away from climate change and they are backing away from abortion at least donald trump is backing away from the national abortion ban because again, it's unpopular. you put three of those supreme court justices on the bench and you have decided to put together an entire apparatus. you're talking about, this is the linkedin of maga of what they put together. 20,000 people that are ready and waiting to got our agencies from the inside out. now that people are aware of it, this pdf that they have put on a website, now they want to back away from it and it's too late. pandora is already out of the box. >> molly, one of the things we talked about before is the defeat of donald trump does not

equate to the defeat of project 2025. can you just talk again to our audiences about how important it is that they understand that this is something that is essentially setting the course for a conservative ideology in candidates on all levels for the next at least 2 to 3 decades. >> the puck and marty is now trump. trump is the republic and party. so as opposed to 2016, when you had trump as sort of an outlier, now, the party has pretty much given it self up to him. a lot of these ideas and, member, trump's name is mentioned more than 300 times in the document. you know, it is written by some of his cabinet secretaries, by people who worked in his admin, these like bold ideas, like firing almost all of the federal workforce, like, you know, getting rid of, you know the national weather service. these things and really making the doj an arm of the trunk -- trump admin, that stuff is not going away.

this is what republicans want to do and it's really in authoritarian vision. >> andy, it feels very much so like the heritage foundation is married to donald trump, but donald trump is single. so i would like to know, from your perspective, what is the conversation within the heritage foundation about trying to sort of reach back and say, no, we are allied with donald trump and he's aligned with us. we are actually together together, regardless of what he is telling you. >> yeah, based on all the people i talked to in washington, people who are in the think tank industry, people who are on the campaigns. what's going on now is sort of a mutually understood separation in which the trump campaign realizes in stark ways that project 2025 has proved deeply unpopular and that they need to distance themselves from it.

and that the heritage foundation and its president, kevin roberts know that they have to go along with it. their future is his to donald trump. they are as molly and others have just said, they are part of this party that is wrapped around trump, ideologies, visions, and so on. they know they have to go along with this in the moment. they have to play along and say sure. is not donald trump. yet i think what our reporting shows, what the story shows is to look further down the line of the kinds of people who would go into the next administration, if it is a trumpet ministration and they are the people in the videos, they are the people who are trained by heritage. they are the people who are steeped in this heritage foundation, maga style conservatism. they can credit -- try to distance themselves but the moment donald trump winds, this is what his administration does. this game, this notion that there is a separation. it goes away the moment he

winds. that's why the videos, the policy document, all the stuff is so important, despite what trump and his campaign may be saying right now. >> danielle, i want to get your reactions. stephen miller sat with my colleague, here on msnbc. this is how he responded to questions around overlaps between the administration and project 2025. >> project 2025 has absolutely nothing to do with the past, present, or future. president trump and president trump alone will make his own policies. my organization is not on the board of project 2025. never advised or consulted it. >> i'll just finish the question. giving you time to answer. just want to say, in fairness to the photo there, which shows you working with heritage and the book is in the room, and so what you say to people who see that history and think there was a link and now it's being walked away from because of the contents in the controversies of those plans. >> i mean it doesn't necessarily have to mean that

they are in cahoots, of course. this also beachfront property in idaho that i would like to sell you, but what do you think? >> here is what i will say. we don't do ourselves a service by platforming white supremacist. stephen miller is a white supremacist and we know that. first, that being the case, we know that they are liars. how many times do we have to listen to these people, like to our faces. oh, project 2025, the telly what is donald trump's agenda, because it and roll it out at that convention. they rolled out hulk hogan and they rolled out a lot of wwe people and some played out washed up rock stars, but they didn't roll out a plan. but it is not a page document is in the plan, then tell me what it is. which he doesn't know how to spell and he doesn't know what it is and reporters never ask him any follow-up questions, so if this is not the plan, and journalist need to be asking donald trump at his home in mar-

a-lago what is the plan then, if it's not project 2025, tell us what it is. we know 100% of the donald trump is aligned with these people, these people are lined with donald trump and they are trying to play the -- ring out like it's an episode of scooby- doo and we don't know what's under the mask. >> this panel is so good that we are going to bring them back. andy kroll, thank you. danielle and molly are staying with me. right after the break, i'm going to speak with congressman jake about the ongoing attacks that are going against governor walz. and kicking the cans. and feeding their dogs dog food that's actually well, food. developed with vets. made from real meat and veggies. portioned for your dog. and delivered right to your door. it's smarter, healthier pet food. get 50% off your first box at thefarmersdog.com/realfood what the biggest companies deliver

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welcome back. as we talked about before the break, donald trump and the republic and party are clearly panicked about the backlash to project 2025. they have every right to be because it's about to get a whole lot worse. according to rolling stone, democrats from across the harris campaign, the dnc, and other messaging operations are planning to smother trump, j.d.

vance, and the republican candidates with their own vision for the country, well into november re-election. this is a strategy that will reportedly include spending significant time and money on targeted ads and on other messaging to fundraising blitzes and trying to further solidify project 2025 into the public consciousness. my next guest has been sounding the alarm on project 2025 for quite a while. welcome, democratic congressman jake auchincloss. who joins me. congressman, are you surprised that project 2025 has caught on in such a big way with voters and what are the democrats planning to do in order to capitalize on now, on that sort of recognition that it now has? >> no, i'm not surprised, because the ideas are unpopular and because they are so closely intertwined with donald trump himself, with his campaign over it.

if you've done such a good job this evening about x positing for our viewers here. what we are going to do about it if we are going to elucidate a clear and sharp contrast between kamala harris, whose talking about our future and donald trump, whose talking about his path. americans are sick of him. they are sick of eight years of him bellyaching and contriving grievances to complain about and they want to have a more positive vision of the future. we are going to talk about more freedom and lower costs while they are trying to create some distance between ideas like cutting headstart and politicizing social security and medicare. >> so i've got to push back and sort of ask, we've done a lot to call attention to project 2025 and i think that's fantastic, but a lot of what i'm hearing and have heard seems and feels reactionary. when do we get an affirmative plan that mirrors the left's version of project 2025 that lays out an agenda both at the federal and state level, that progresses and people on the left can get behind and push on their own, in their own respective circles?

>> well kamala harris is been on the top of this ticket for a couple weeks now. she still introducing herself to voters in battleground states. i will tell you one thing that i'm certainly going to be pushing for the democrats to put front and center and that is the cost of housing. if you look across the economy right now, americans are telling us loud and clear, cost is the number one issue. it's number one issue, period. housing, whether rent or mortgage is 30, 40, maybe 50% of wallets. certainly in massachusetts it's suffocating the economy. we are going to build 10 million units of housing. they are going to be restricted and -- unrestricted and affordable in part so that we can ensure no one is rent burden or mortgage burden and everyone can transfer wealth in this country across generations. >> one thing the democrats have done a lot of and we've heard it from minority leader jeffries and others is sort of put the blame on congress and their in action this term on

republicans. look, this is an republic and leadership, the american people are suffering with respect to that. so, if donald trump is successful, if republicans do retain control of the house, what is the strategy that democrats are currently developing or is the strategy to address the next round of congress, the next sort of term in office because the american people can't just sit and wait while democrats say, well, republicans are in charge, we can't do anything. >> first and foremost, it's going to be a fight to protect the constitution. we saw donald trump in january of 2024 -- 2021, try to overthrow the united states government. we heard him say now that he will not accept the results of the election yet again. we can expect that he will try to steal this election if and when he loses it, and we are going to have to protect the constitution as we did on january 6. without the rule of law, without our system of

government, we cannot provide for the standard of living and the other things we want to achieve. >> let's talk about some of the attacks that we have seen from vice president -- and the gop on kamala harris's running mate, tim walz. vance earlier accused him of stoler valor, but now he is basically trying to back away from those critiques and say that he never said it. let's hear what he had to say >> you honor his service? >> of course, i honor his service and i've never criticized what tim walz did when he was in the military. i criticized his retirement decision. >> argument, as a veteran yourself, what is your reaction to these critiques and, generally speaking, republicans who have particularly at the highest level with respect to donald trump, not been as respectful to our veterans as something that they should be. >> it's a sign of desperation. it is a sign of desperation

because donald trump is scared now because he can see that he is on a glide path to lose this election. he's frustrated because he chose j.d. vance to be his vice presidential nominee. the worst vp pick since aaron burr, i would say, and so when he gets scared, donald trump turns to insults and in particular, we know that he has a track record of insulting veterans. he called, he attacked, rather, gold star families, he called dead veterans losers and suckers, he will try to deny that, but a four-star general who worked and heard him say that and since confirmed it on the record, and he said that john mccain wasn't a war hero. donald trump has no respect for veterans and so now, attacking tim walz, who served honorably for 24 years who was four years past his retirement when he made the hard decision to run for congress, as opposed to staying with his unit so that he could serve veterans, which he did when he was in congress. this is all part of donald trump's playbook and really, they are just trying to swift vote tim walz. with a punch, we're going to put back twice as hard. >> these attacks that we are hearing from the gop, we have seen them before in 2004.

bush was successful in going after john kerry's military service. general bone spurs aside, is there a concern that from what we are hearing from the right could somehow take root, particularly among veterans and people who are really engaged around the support of the arm service community and ultimately play to the advantage of what the trump campaign is seeking to do? >> yes, there is concern, there should be concern because you and i both saw this in 2004. it did take -- john kerry, who had been wounded in combat multiple times in vietnam was really seriously politically damaged by attacks from george bush, who never served, and they came up with this entire campaign called swift vote veterans for truth. they ran the swiftboat campaign in 2004. is not the same playbook, it's the same man. we are not going to allow that to happen in 2004. the democratic party has learned a lot of lessons since then and we are going to hit back

extremely hard because donald trump got five vietnam deferments. he got a bone spurs hearing as a favor to his father. he has the soul of a coward, as the family of one deceased army captain said and we are going to hit him every time he attempts to submerge the record of an honorable veteran like tim walz. >> congressman, thank you so much. from swift boats to swifty's. coming up, celebrity endorsem*nts, do they help or hurt a political movement. we will have more from our panel after the break. stay tuned for more ayman. year, save 50% on the sleep number® limited edition smart bed. shop now at a sleep number store near you.

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self-awareness from the right and he had a point. there is to say the least a stark difference between kamala harris and donald trump's celebrity endorsem*nts. harris has a bunch of a listers backing her like charlie xps. -- or beyonce, who allowed her to use her freedom at her campaign events or megan thee stallion who made a pact rally last month. not to mention george clooney. as for trump's a-list backers, -- he's got some body. he's got kid rock and he's got wrestler hulk hogan. both of them were at the republican national convention and, and he's also being backed by superman actor dean cain. kevin sorbo and dennis quaid of, wait for it, parent trap fame. i can't speak -- i come from a

place of 2024 and their, we were recalling all of those dudes washed. but what is it actually worth? how much of a difference can these endorsem*nts actually make in a presidential election, regardless of how popular or how relevant a person may be elsewhere? as vox puts it, as you are one of the most famous influential woman in the world, you may be able to sway a presidential election a little. if not, the effect might be a bit more limited. no, i'm not talking about taylor swift. we are going to talk about her in a minute, calm down. i'm talking about oprah winfrey, who, back in 2007, endorsed brock obama. -- barack obama. >> for the very first time in my life, i feel compelled to stand up and to speak out for the man who i believe has a new vision for america. i am not here to tell you what

to think. i am here to ask you to think. seriously. >> winfrey's is actually a rare impact. the 2013 northwestern university study found that she increased overall voter turnout and financial contributions and she was responsible for 1 million additional votes for president obama. there is an important caveat. that was actually a democratic primary were voters were choosing from the candidates with the same party affiliation, rather than a general election. but what if we apply that logic to today? there is a buzz from a harris endorsem*nt from swift, who did -- that speculation increased after her recent instagram photo featuring a silhouette of a figure in a pantsuit, which some seem to believe was a wink and a nod at harris don't

forget, swifties for kamala which launched last month already has some 87,000 followers across x and instagram. their organizing efforts kickoff at the end of the month. now, we have to wonder what influence and endorsem*nt could have in this moment. back in 2018, odot work said her polls endorsing a senate candidate got 65,000 people registered to vote. now since then, swift's fame has only grown. but what if all the a-list star power isn't a foolproof plan? maybe, instead, it's about meeting voters where they are. that is to say, celebrities who are necessarily household names but still have influence in their own right. think about another kind of star, the dude bro influencers, for example, on youtube and tiktok like bryce hall, and the paul brothers. each of them has millions of subscribers. back in june, trump made an appearance on logan paul's podcast. >> no way.

i got a gift. >> i got a lot of money for this thing. >> no way. thank you, president. >> hears -- >> amazing. >> this is -- >> is this your mug shot? so gangster! >> it is giving white boy summer. that video has more than 6 million views. on the left, there's also been momentum for harris among progressive content creators and even a push to get her on hot once. that the widely popular -- while the e progressively spicier chicken wings. so what is worth more? and a list endorsem*nt or an appearance with a popular influencer? or is it just all shameless pandering? i'm going to get to that with my panelist as we get back. so stay tuned. y tuned. oh. enjoy it. oh, poofect. bye waybor. something minty?

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if you have ever weathered these wondered where the washtub leading men of the 90s have gone, people like hulk hogan, dennis quaid, dean cain, guys who were at one point may have seemed untouchable, revered by men and desired by women, but now are not, the answer is you can find them with the trim campaign. danielle and molly are both back with me. molly, i want to talk to you about the taylor swift effect. i think that there is a lot of excitement that is generated on the left from the potential of

a swift endorsem*nt and swifties getting behind kamala harris and her campaign. but what about the day after? what about november 6? what type of engagement should we expect, look for, hope for, push for with respect to the people who received these celebrity endorsem*nts and go to the polls kind of sort of at the behest of the celebrities in terms of future civic engagement? >> i mean, i think the stakes in this election are so high, and this is like the do you want to have elections election, so in my mind, if they go to the polls and they vote to keep democracy going, that's good enough for me. i think taylor swift has, you know, she did endorse biden the last time and, beyonce is already, you know, very much on board. these are women who very much so understand the stakes of this election when it comes to reproductive rights, ivf, birth

control. they are endorsing harris not just because she's a good candidate but because they could be personally affected by some of these policies. >> danielle, one of the things that is a very nuanced conversation in the community is this notion, particularly with women talking about the black vote. who do you put out to endorse you as a candidate, and what does that say message wise? i've heard people who are quite frankly offended that megan thee stallion was on a stage in atlanta and she torqued because there were some people in the black community who felt like is this what you think of us, where is the policy, why can we not have something or someone who, intellectually speaks to us? why is it athletes, entertainers, musicians who seem to be rappers and use to speak u.s. or is it just a matter of you have to grab people where they are? how do you fall on that scale a

balancing? >> i think you meet people where they are. i don't see anything wrong with megan thee stallion on stage with vice president kamala harris. i see nothing wrong with that. it's not as if she's trying to hawk sneakers and a mug shot and say that's what black people like. like donald trump has done. so, you know, i think, look, we have all segments of the population and there are some that very much follow entertainers and musicians and athletes and follow their lead on a lot of things. if you have a steph curry who has endorsed vice president kamala harris. if you have, you know, a charli xcx who is saying, you know, that kamala is brat. if you have these young voices that are coming out, kerry washington, just endorsed -- you have ariana grande day and all of these other people. like this matters. it matters to a younger generation and so, if you want smart voices, then go to smart, different places. right, but it's just to say

because people are on the news or they are on a basketball court that there something wrong with that. everyone has a vested interest, just like molly said in preserving our democracy and our rights and that doesn't just mean one sect of the population. you have to go and blast your message wide and far. >> molly, i need to put on your pop culture critic hat. i was talking about the tv land delegation with dean cain and hulk hogan and like these are like, like dean cain is regarded as the worst version of superman. you know, in some respects. it's very much so fitting that these people would be aligned with 45, but on a deeper level, is there a connection between the type of sort of escaped machismo that all of those people and body and then, if you look at, you know, the breaux, you know, the dude broke contingent of podcasters and influencers that seem to welcome donald trump with open arms and then the strongmen you know, the campaign, that circle . is there a connection there, and if so, can you make that clear for viewers? >> yeah.

i just say one of the thing about megan thee stallion. she is actually a champion of women's productive health and i have heard her give really smart speeches. she is actually very tuned in politically and a real feminist in the tradition. she actually really does, you know, she doesn't have a superficial view of candidates. she really understands the issues. but just, yes. this hyper masculinity is what we saw a lot of in -- during the rnc. a lot of this very masculine culture. i think that trump, in order to win, he needs to go to the electorate that this is not going to the electorate. this is his people. this is his base. i mean, i think he thinks that he can use the same calculus that worked for him in 2016 get these low-frequency voters out there, but i don't think that

refusing to grow the electorate is a smart electoral strategy. >> i understand that, and i also agree with you about megan thee stallion. i'm glad that that is something that you brought out. i wonder why the harris campaign did not make more of an effort to publicize that when she did the rally in atlanta. because i do think it would have quieted some of those criticism. people like you and i are aware of that, but i don't think everyone knows that. so danielle, does the harris campaign usually do these need to do more that when they do invite people like megan thee stallion to endorse them and -- >> i think they can absolutely do that. but these people also have a large platform, where exactly what molly said. you know that because you are following megan thee stallion. you've heard her speak. she uses her platform in a very

positive way. there are lots of folks that do that. but i think that they can provide a greater context of these people's understanding of the political moment that we are in and the existential crisis that our democracy is in? absolutely. but i also think that there are some people that like their stuff, you know, surface level and it's okay. and we can leave it at that. >> and let's leave it at that. danielle moodie and molly jong- fast, two of my absolute favorites. thank you for being here. coming up, a preview of tonight's preview -- book burning documentary, to be destroyed. stay tuned, you are watching ayman on msnbc . everybody wants super straight, super white teeth. they want that hollywood white smile. new sensodyne clinical white provides 2 shades whiter teeth and 24/7 sensitivity protection.

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we are back with breaking news from the pentagon. in a call with israel's defense minister, u.s. defense secretary lloyd austin informed tel aviv that he has ordered the uss georgia, a guided missile submarine, to the central command region. distributing -- throughout the middle east is happening in light of escalating regional tensions between israel, iran, and hezbollah. back here at home, republicans made the boldest move yet in their pursuit to control what students can read in classrooms and in libraries. last week, utah band 13 books statewide. according to penn america, it's the first time a state has required all of its schools to remove a list of titles. it included books by judy blume, margaret atwood, -- and others. this comes after state lawmakers passed a law on july 1st that mandates a book be removed from all public schools in the state. if at least three school districts condone it as amounts to harmful, p*rnographic, or

otherwise indecent content. they been tracking book bans for several years and for 2023 and 2024, they reported a huge spike to more than 4000 instances of book banning across the country. we know the real reasons for these bands, and they are ramping up. more political influence can be -- an increasingly intense battleground within american politics, where the far right is succeeding in advancing its agenda to suppress books that do not promote conservative values. coming up on msnbc, you will get to see a documentary that affords a south dakota communities -- community's decision for pulling -- inkling one by best selling author, dave eggers. when we heard that his book, the circle, was banned from schools in rapid city, eggers -- wanted answers. he is here for the premier of to be destroyed.

>> well, i am here because my book, along with four others was pulled from the shelves in a high school library and the students that were assigned the books were no longer allowed to read them. high schoolers, especially seniors in high school, they are about to be totally independent people. they are treated as adults in the eyes of the law and they certainly can handle a few passages in a few books that have a little bit of sexual content to them or adult content. >> when we come back, i will be joined by the director of that project, arthur bradford. t, ar for a total value of twelve hundred and fifty dollars. only on verizon. (jalen hurts) see you sunday! if you're living with hiv, imagine being good to go without daily hiv pills. good to go off the grid. good to go nonstop. with cabenuva, there's no pausing for daily hiv pills.

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before the break we were talking about book banning and the msnbc film documentary to be destroyed. it features best selling author, dave eggers, on his quest understand why his book, the circle, along with four others, was banned in schools in rapid city, south dakota. joining me now is the director of the film, arthur bradford. arthur, so glad to be with you, but before we get into the details of the film, why is it that you wanted to make this film in the first place? >> well, i had been in touch with dave, the author who is featured in the film, and he, i just thought that the story he was telling was really interesting. i thought it would be an interesting perspective to go to one of these communities where the books were being restricted and see it from the point of view of one of the writers who had written one of

the books. >> that's a very interesting perspective. one of the things i was amazed about was how open and honest the school board members you talk to were when you asked them about the reasons that they targeted and banned the books that they did. can you tell us what were some of the things that they said and were you surprised that they were so candid about why they said it? >> yeah, i think there really is a misconception amongst certain people that there is a secret agreement amongst teachers to hyper sexualize kids or something and i think there was a real fear in that community that was being stoked against the teachers and i think it was really unfair and i think dave just came in at the urging of the teachers and just let them give them a sense of power and a voice. >> you know, even as there are book bans that are on the rise, there is a study that found

that the circulation of banned books increases 12% more than of non-banned book titles. why do you think that is the case? is it more so of, if you restrict something, people are more likely to indulge it, and what do you think that students are interpreting when -- this might be something that i actually want to gravitate toward. >> i think that might be true. what is interesting is it's so hard to get students to read anything these days. i think maybe that you are right, that banning a book might be their curiosity a bit. on the flipside, i think a lot of the people that are advocating for banning these books never read them and have no interest in reading them. they just get a worksheet, some sort of, you know -- propaganda

that says that there is one or two parts in this book that are objectionable. >> do you think there's any sort of connection between the students who are experiencing these book bans and then a desire to engage the democratic process or civic engagement even more? i think that really could be true. i was really impressed with the students in rapid city. there were several of them that really just blew us away with their reasoning and really, there is nothing like a student to speak out against a book ban this. adults can argue with each other only one, but when you hear from the students, it's really something. what i like to think is if you watch this documentary, you see a community feeling empowered. rapid city, what happened here i think is a good news story. if you watch the school board, several of the school board members, they advocated for destroying these books were

lost elections shortly afterwards. >> that was director arthur bradford. thank you so much, and thank you, at home, for making time for us. that's going to do it for me. be sure to come back next week and when ayman is in the chair. i am charles coleman jr. and i want to extend -- to allowing me to see in the sea and making my job super easy this weekend. as promised, to be destroyed starts right now. . (letters ratcheting) (bright music) (traffic droning) (pensive music) (pensive music continues)

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